Malachi
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Joined: Sep 2003
Location:
Oklahoma
My Car: Modded 2002 540i/6

These are a couple of rules of thumb you may want to consider when doing a cost-benefits analysis for your E39.

1) Pounds: for every +/- 100 lbs you get an equivalent +/- 7 HP

2) HP=>ET: An increase of 10 HP will reduce your 1/4 mile ET by .15 seconds

I used a couple of different programs/calculators for this. This is not an exact science but I believe will give you an idea of your bang for your buck.

Just thought I would share them.

 

DanB
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Joined: Feb 2002
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San Diego
My Car: A bucket

Very interesting... Let's revisit some of the things which would help us shave weight, while retaining the luxury aspect of the car...

-Carbon Fiber hood, trunk lid, front fenders. These parts wouldn't be particularly hard to make, though the trunk lid has a lot going on inside of it, and would probably be the hardest part. I imagine this would save 150 lbs or so. Beastpower is working on the hood...

-Carbon Fiber sunroof replacement ~ 20 lbs saved

-Spare tire delete, replace with M-mobility ~ 35 lbs saved

-Dinan, or other 17 lb lightweight wheels ~ 30 lbs (sprung?) weight saved

-Exhaust system replaced ~ 50 lbs (though arguably lessens the "luxury" aspect)

-Carbon Fiber driveshaft ~ 20 lbs (stock is 26 lbs)

-Misc Carbon Fiber pieces (intake :D, valve covers, etc) ~ 20 lbs

So with all this, you could save maybe 325 lbs

-----------------------------------

Items which would detract from luxury, but would leave the car functional;

-Composite seats ~ 70 lbs
-AC system removal ~ 50 lbs
-lightweight flywheel ~ 15 lbs

So there's another 125 lbs

So you can shave ~ 480-500 lbs off the weight of an E39 540i/528i. That's good for 35 HP equivalent/.52 seconds off your 1/4 mile, not to mention an increase in handling.

What do you think?

-DanB

 

DanB
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My Car: A bucket

But seriously, not all of those items would take away any of the luxury of the car. Carbon Fiber hood/trunk/fenders, driveshaft, spare tire delete - if made from solid and quality parts - would not in any way detract from the luxury of the car. Carbon Fiber can be painted, and the M5 comes with M-Mobility.

The sunroof would (I suppose) take away from the luxury aspect, though things like the wheels and the exhaust are things that many do anyway to enhance the performance of their E39s.

-DanB

 

Malachi
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Joined: Sep 2003
Location:
Oklahoma
My Car: Modded 2002 540i/6


Anyone know how much our hoods weigh and how much a carbon fiber hood would weigh?

That would be one mod worth looking at because it is taking away weight on the front end where it is needed most to get that 50/50 balance.

Reducing weight on the back end (exhaust) takes the current 52/48 balance and makes it worse.

 

DanB
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Joined: Feb 2002
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My Car: A bucket


Stock hood: 50 lbs w/sound silencing material (15 lbs CF)
trunk: 28.2 lbs (8 lbs CF)
sunroof glass: 16.1 lbs (2 lbs CF)
front fender (ea): ~ 20 lbs (6 lbs CF ea)

The first 3 are from ETK weights, the last one is an estimation from when I've handled a front fender.

My estimates for CF weight are based on my involvement in the production of the stuff. If it's 100% pure carbon with no fiberglass, you can achieve said weights. Now that I look more closely, there's really only about 100 lbs savings (not 150).

-DanB

 

Malachi
Registered User

Joined: Sep 2003
Location:
Oklahoma
My Car: Modded 2002 540i/6

In theory E39 540i would have to lose about 79 lbs to get to the magical 50/50 (I really don't know how much that will improve handling but, I guess thats another discussion). The CF hood and fenders would lessen the front end by 63 lbs (35+14+14) and get us an equivalent of 4.4 hp or .07 seconds in the 1/4 mile ET for the low price of ____________?

Again, great info Dan, I appreciate the data.

 

DanB
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Joined: Feb 2002
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My Car: A bucket

 

Get ready for the long version...

To start, a well made carbon fiber hood will require a $5000.00 mold. Mold costs vary by the person who makes 'em, and someone with skill is needed to make a mold that will produce a hood nothing short of art. I guess you could also CNC an aluminum mold, though it would weigh a ton - and would likely cost more. The actual material involved - if 100% carbon fiber - would probably be $500 alone (4.75/sq foot for pre-preg carbon fiber, assuming 5 layers of carbon used and a hood which is 4.5x5 feet).

The layup itself would take several hours by a very skilled person so that the bias was completely straight, and so that there were no pinholes in the piece. After this, the whole thing would have to be sealed in a vacuum bag to provide compaction, and cured in an autoclave (which heats up while providing constant vacuum). Compaction essentially squishes the carbon fiber against the mold, and forces the resin to flow in the direction of the mold - forming a beautiful surface. If the person making the piece is skilled, the piece will only need to be buffed a little to look like this. If not, the whole hood will need to be sanded down and sprayed with an acrylic clearcoat to achieve the same finish. (which adds weight). After the piece is cured in the autoclave, it is taken out, popped out of the mold, and trimmed to the exact size it needs to be.

A secondary bonding process will be needed to incorporate the mounting points for the OEM hinge and latch.

So taking into account a $5,000.00 mold, 8 hours or so to lay the piece up and finish it, and profit for the shop, you're realistically looking at a $2,000 - $2500.00 price tag on a well made lightweight carbon fiber hood, $1500-$2,000 for fenders, and about the same for a trunk. This is assuming a run of 50 of each product to ammortize the cost of the mold, which puts the manufacturer over the fence for well over $150,000 to bring the product to market with an inventory. Of course, you could do batches of 10 at a time for 17K/batch.

You might be asking why you see "Carbon Fiber" hoods for $200-$500? It's because they are made with several layers of fiberglass, and maybe one layer of actual carbon fiber which is not pre-preg (pre impregnated with resin). After the layers of fiberglass are applied (cheap, heavy, and known as a "filler" material in the composites industry) they use a wet-layup process on the one layer of carbon fiber. This means they lay a raw sheet of carbon fiber (has the consistency of cloth) into the fiberglass, and paintbrush resin into it. The whole thing is put in an oven and baked (not using any compaction). This method produces a heavy hood which is often as heavy as stock, and because of the resin they lay it up with - the piece will have "paint strokes" and will likely rapidly turn yellow with UV exposure.

Below are more examples of good carbon fiber which is made using pre-preg carbon fiber in an autoclaved process...

56K warning! Carbon Fiber intake

56K WARNING!!! Ducati Fender

Another 56K warning! This is a Ducati rear fender.

 

 

DanB
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Joined: Feb 2002
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My Car: A bucket

Quote:


Originally Posted by Malachi
Wow thanks Dan :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Just about everything I ever wanted to know!

Can CF be painted to match the car's original color?


Absolutely, though it needs to be sanded down to be able to use a primer that will adhere to the surface.

-DanB